Re: Chandas
Subbarao Varigonda (varigond@cems.umn.edu)
Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:29:28 -0600 (CST)
> The discussion started with gu being guruvu in sahajamagu prEma.
> No matter what, this gu cannot be a guruvu. I asked Suba Rao garu
> for examples like that because I believed there won't be any. I still
> feel that it is easier to look at an example (provded it is not a
> mistake
> or exception by great writers) rather than coining our own
> phraseology
> whic makes life more complicated.
true indeed. That is the reason I asked you many times to write which
aspect (of the eight) of my statement you were suspecting. I never got
a response to that question (till 11am today) except that you were saying
I was incorrect, my statement was incorrect etc etc. You are hanging on
a single word I used 'freedom' by which I intended to mean 'using laghu
and guru at different situations in a similar context'. More accurate rules
quoted by Sri vElUri do explain when to use what depending on pause between
words.
As I see, 6 out of the eight implications are acceptable to you.
You do not agree that
1. non-samAsa, samyuktAkshara with rEpha -> prec letter can be taken as guru
2. non-samAsa, samyuktAkshara w/o rEpha -> prec letter can be taken as guru
Your rule 'padam virigitE guruvu kAdu' is forceful here. In the first case,
I have to agree I may not be able to defend easily. guruvu is extremely rare
in unrelated words with rEpha. But I feel with non-rEpha, it is not so difficult.
> The distinction between samaasas and non samaasas is important because
> that determines how we should pronounce (not how we like to pronounce.
> It is not whether we want to read fast or slow).
The other 6 implications, I provided the instances.
I haven't got convincing explanation for 'chEtivrELLU' or 'nAlgu prakkalu'.
As you said earlier, samAsam is a single word and guruvu should be taken.
(Re: kavi pravara poem). But here are words that are 'single' and yet
guruvu is not taken.
If both your statement
'in a samAsa, guruvu must be taken' and
the above uses where laghuvu are taken
are true then they imply "there is freedom whithin a samaasa".
>
> Sri Mohana Rao pointed out that the words in
>
> # dhvani krama pravartita pracanDa tAnDava SSivah #
>
> cannot be separated. It is a single samaasam an we have no choice of
> breaking it.
I don't think he said it's a single samaasa. he said there are hidden
visargas. I felt it difficult to break samaasa in samskRta padyAs. All
words seem to be associated. But there must be clues from the meaning.
Just as a matter of curiosity, do we have a usage like 'sahajamagu prEma'
in sanskrit? (ie, non-samaasa, samyuktAkshra with rEpha, laghuvu taken)
>
> > ps: iMtakee naa saMtakaMlOni raavulO 'vu' guruvaa? laghuvaa?
>
> adi laghuvE! guruvu gaari pErulO chOTu chEsukunnaa vrAlutO sakhyam
You might be right here (more probability)! Taking it as laghuvu I
never contradicted. But what I neagted is 'must it be laghuvu?'
> marI anta prayOjanakAri kAlEkapOyindi. Similarly Du in ataDu vyApAri
> will not be guruvu.
This too! I will need time (uncertain how much) to find an example for
non-repha, non-samasam taken as guruvu.
> Mohana Rao wrote about kaali vrELLu. chEti
> vrELLInA
he wrote that you can take a laghuvu even inside a samaasa if you can pause.
That is not in favor of what you stated earlier (samaasa=>1 word=> guruvu)
> antE. With all the rules either quoted or formulated, really there is
> no
> freedom to treat a letter in both ways.
If we go to basic level of 'sulakshaNa sAram' etc, it prescribes everything
exactly based on pronunciation. So there is no freedom. Agreed. But I
requested to interpret the word 'freedom' i used to be in negation to
your restrictions that
'in a samAsam, it has to be guru, in a non-samAsait has to be laghu' etc.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
My intention is to say that there is more freedom
than what is specfied by the underlined statement.
The extra (**relative**) freedom is not total freedom because ab initio
phonetic rule exists and must be obeyed.
> There is a differnce between
> samaasas in Sanskrit and compound words in telugu which are not
> actually compound.
Are you referring to nA 'kAlivrELLu' or 'chEtivrELLu'!? They are samaasas.
telugu padalatO samAsaalu. Could you be more specific here?
> padam virigitE laghuvu laghuvE! taravAta aksharam
> dwitwamInA samyuktamInA.
kAlivrELLalO padam viruga lEdE! manam viripitE tappa!
Isn't it different from 'sahajamagu prEma' and yet the same laghu is
taken at both places?
> Basically, this is not a standard samaasam and mangaLArati and
> jyOti are two words. (We can have another nice discussion about that
> if some disagree). So, ti here is a laghuvu.
if 'dhaniH kramaH pravartitaH pracanDa pancaSAyakE' is a single samAsam,
I fail to see why 'mangaLAratijyOti' isn't one!
> In mammula
> svArthabuddhitO,
> la can never be a guruvu because these are two words.
This is same as 'ataDu vyApAri' for which I still have to search.
> Finally, I believe that poets have not exercised any freedom in making
> a letter laghuvu or guruvu. My knowledge is limited too. So I would
> like
> to see valid case where it can be both. The only possibility is
> probably
> some chitrakavitvam where the words can be read in different ways!
>
> Regards,
> Bachoti Sridhara Rao
What made me puzzled is the vehement opposition raised against my statement
when 6 cases are accounted correctly but 2 doubtfully.
Your samaasa rule excluded two more uses that are valid. The previous
arguments aren't so specific.
Even after repeated requests, nobody wrote what exactly they felt wrong in
the statement. I had to write the eight aspects of which you were really
disputing four.
I request you to reconsider the treatment you gave to me!
regards,
vari
ps: I'm thick-skinned anyway! :-)
--
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